During tank troop maneuvers at a combat training center near Gardelgen, Colonel Jörg Tölke, 56, the new commander of the Munster tank troop, explained how the Bundeswehr tank troop is adapting to changing military realities. The German Army currently has around 300 “Leopard” battle tanks, and another 123 have been ordered. There are also about 800 “Marder” and “Puma” armored personnel carriers; The Puma gradually replaced the older Marder. Overall, armored forces are expected to continue to grow in the coming years.
WORLD ON SUNDAY: Colonel, what role should armored forces play in combined arms systems – in a military environment increasingly characterized by drones and automatic weapons?
Jorg Tolke: We always group tank troops together – these are grenadiers and main battle tanks, so that we have a whole system. Their job then and now is to take up space and hold space. This will not be any different in the future, no matter how advanced automation becomes. In this case, the core role of armored forces will remain intact in the future.
JERKIN: The war in Ukraine shows how drones are rapidly becoming increasingly integrated into warfare.
Tolké: I believe the role of main battle tanks and infantry fighting vehicles as armored forces will remain. Even if new systems such as drones are introduced, the fundamental tasks of armored troops will not change. What needs to be adapted is the question: How to create the necessary protection for main fighting vehicles and infantry fighting vehicles? How can armored troops complete their tasks? That’s actually the perspective. It’s not about, do I not need any more armored troops or more or less? It’s about how do I enable the soldiers to fulfill their duties? In the end, what matters is taking space, holding space, and holding space. And you can only do that with “boots on the ground.” Ultimately, this is what armored fighting forces can do with their best and most useful offensive power.
JERKIN: How do weapon systems like drones change your training content?
Tolké: The core duties of those we train, tank commanders, platoon commanders, or company commanders, remain the same for now. March and attack, defend with armored fighting troops, it won’t change much. Additionally, threats from drones or your own use of drones is another aspect. But that doesn’t change the fundamentals of what we train. In this case, most of the training remains the same. You should expand the program to include three dimensions via drones in the sky or drones on the ground. The bottom line remains, most of the training content remains. You just need to adapt it in a modern way.
JERKIN: A “Leopard” main battle tank costs more than 20 million euros. Given the relatively cheap destructive power of drones, should you have an internal discussion regarding tank prices and their proportionality?
Tolké: This is a twisted calculation that cannot be done like this. Of course, cheap drones are much cheaper than battle tanks. However, that’s not necessarily what they’re fighting over. If I have an enemy attack drone, I also have a defense drone, which is a defense drone. Whether it’s a laser-assisted drone or a kinetic drone with weapon effects, that’s really what you have to calculate. You should think about the protective bell on top of the armored battle squad and not the main battle tank itself. He played his role. However, defensive and offensive drones can be balanced against each other.
JERKIN: So will the new Leopard 2A8 model have more air or self protection?
Tolké: I wouldn’t even relate this to main battle tanks or infantry fighting vehicles themselves. We were just talking about combined arms combat. For example, we are now also retrofitting air defense systems such as Skyranger. And also other systems in the fight against drones, whether it’s net-launching drones or similar systems, they’re all here now. They then have to offset the main battle tank with another main battle tank or large weapons system on the other side. Otherwise, the calculation will be wrong.
JERKIN: When the Puma infantry fighting vehicle was introduced, there were problems with the highly complex electronics, and the Bundeswehr and industry blamed each other for this. Can interaction between the Bundeswehr and arms manufacturers be improved, including directly in branches of the armed forces such as the armed forces?
Tolké: When you introduce a new system at scale, there are always big problems. We’ve experienced this with almost every weapon system so far. That’s pretty normal, I think. But now the Puma and other weapons systems being introduced are state-of-the-art, reliable, bold, and exactly what we want. Can this be optimized in the weapons process? You can definitely optimize it. However, we are very happy with the final results achieved to date.
JERKIN: When developing a new highly automated model, such as the Panther main battle tank, there might only be two people on board, instead of the four the Leopard currently has. Does the Panzertruppenschule provide advice on innovation or development processes?
Tolké: Our headquarters is the Army Development Office. We are of course willing to provide advice and support based on our experience in everyday troop life. But if it ultimately comes down to the idea of further development, the office is in charge. Ultimately, what we care about is that the entire associated weapon system is functional. What do we need for individual systems? There are lots of smart ideas there. The first thing we need is sophisticated, sophisticated equipment that is well connected. And if it’s so easy to use and learn that you can train people quickly and well, I think we’ve ticked all the boxes. Whether two or three people operate this device is a secondary question.
JERKIN: There are new, intensive discussions about military service or social obligations. Are armored forces getting enough of the men and women they need to maintain their operational capabilities? In a situation where the Bundeswehr is competing with a number of companies for the best talent – and perhaps the Bundeswehr branches are also competing with each other?
Tolké: Staff are distributed centrally by the Federal Office of Personnel Management. I don’t see any competition between the various branches of the armed forces or branches of the military. You should always think in terms of the whole system. We need enough staff for the system to work. Maybe some get more and some get less, but in the end what matters is running the whole system. Currently, I do not see that we as an armed forces unit are lagging behind others.
JERKIN: Infrastructure in Germany is in poor condition in many places. There are bridges that are no longer able to carry high loads. For example, will this affect the placement of heavy equipment such as battle tanks or howitzers?
Tolké: I believe that the infrastructure needs to be adjusted and updated. But we must also realize that the large troop movements we expect today are via railways and not via road bridges. In this case, of course there is something that must be adjusted and done on the transportation route. But I can’t judge in detail where.
Since August, Colonel Jörg Tölke, 56, has been in charge of the Munster Panzertruppenschule south of Hamburg, the Bundeswehr’s central training facility for the arms branch, which is also involved in the German Tank Museum. Tölke, among other things, was a department head in the Federal Ministry of Defense, deputy commander of Panzerbrigade 21 in Augustdorf, and was stationed in Afghanistan.
Olaf Preuß is a business reporter for WELT and WELT AM SONNTAG for Hamburg and northern Germany. He regularly reports on the arms industry as well as the Bundeswehr.
