Nathalie Loiseau, Renew MEP and national secretary of the Horizons party, was franceinfo’s political guest on Monday 17 November. He returned to help France to Ukraine while Emmanuel Macron received Volodymyr Zelensky in Paris.
This text corresponds to the interview transcription section above. Click on the video to watch it in full.
Alix Bouilhaguet: President Zelensky was in Paris on Monday 17 November to meet Emmanuel Macron, a visit that comes at a critical time. Pokrovsk (Ukraine) appears to be on the verge of falling into Russian hands. Kyiv also experienced a massive attack on Thursday 13 November. Volodymyr Zelensky wants more air and missile defense systems. France can sell Rafales. Is this a good thing? Will it?
Nathalie Loiseau, Renew MEP and national secretary of the Horizons party: We will wait for the official announcement. After all, it was something I wanted for a long time. The best life insurance for us, the French people, for our security in Europe, is to help the Ukrainian people. It must be done massively, but it must be done quickly. So it would be even better if there was an announcement about Rafale or anti-aircraft systems. But what matters is how quickly we can protect Ukraine’s skies. There’s an initiative called Sky Shield, which consists of protecting western Ukraine, the cities that are being bombed, the civilians that are being killed every night. And this can be done, without risk, and we should do it.
European countries have adopted 19 sets of measures, but Russia is still holding out. Is the 20th package necessary? We get the impression that the United States is saying that they are no longer looking at what sanctions they should impose.
First, there is the so-called ghost fleet. These are ships that transport oil clandestinely, Russian oil to be sold all over the world. We have taken sanctions, but we as European citizens need time to actually implement them. And we know that oil is clearly a source of funding for Putin’s wars. What we need to do, to better help Ukraine and encourage Vladimir Putin to move toward a ceasefire, is to use the frozen Russian assets that are in Europe. Using does not mean sanctioning, but giving Ukraine a down payment on the war losses that Russia owes Ukraine.
Europe is paying to help Ukraine, which has enough funds to last until the first quarter of 2026. There is a loan of 140 billion euros based on actual Russian assets confiscated. And it is currently under discussion. Do you think this could work?
This should work. What’s difficult right now is that Belgium, which is the country where these frozen Russian assets are located, is worried about legal risks, financial risks. All this has been seen for a long time. I have been advocating the use of these frozen Russian assets for a year because after all, eventually, Russia will be ordered to pay war reparations. Ukraine can’t wait. You’d better lend him his war damage immediately. Belgium must help us progress. It wouldn’t hurt to look at the situation in Ukraine.
President Zelensky is also weakened by corruption scandals. Chancellor Merz, whose country provides the most military aid, called on Zelensky to take tougher action against corruption. Does France need convincing?
Everyone needs to see clearly and be convinced. We know that corruption is an endemic phenomenon in Ukraine, as in all countries of the former Soviet Union, and also in Russia. What we note, despite everything, is that in Ukraine and in the midst of the war, those suspected of corruption were pursued independently. This means there is a real effort, there is a desire for Ukraine, which wants to join the European Union, to try to eliminate the specter that was largely encouraged by Putin at the time.
Another European issue, the Mercosur free trade agreement. France still hasn’t managed to find this famous blocking minority. I would like to remind you that at least four countries are needed representing at least 35% of the European Union’s population. This means that the European Council will most likely have to ratify Mercosur on December 18th. Is this a failure for France?
I am one of the European parliamentarians who asked to take this matter to the Court of Justice of the European Union to see whether this draft agreement complies with European law. Because my role as a member of the European Parliament is to protect European society, especially farmers. There has been progress made thanks to France, which we call the safeguard clause. But much more is needed. We need a mirror clause. We continue to push for the protection of our farmers. I really support international trade, it’s not like other international trade, but it doesn’t harm our livestock breeders, our farmers.
So you think there is still something to fight for in Mercosur for France?
We must not give up and in the European Parliament, it is not only the French people who are intervening. More than 140 of us have decided to take the matter to the Court of Justice of the European Union.
You are the chairman of the special commission on the Shield of European Democracy. Its mission is to study foreign interference in social networks and media. You said today that there is a tense climate, both in the United States with Donald Trump and in France. Are there any proposals to be submitted?
There are proposals made by the European Commission to counter interference, but more broadly to protect our democracy from viruses that come from outside but sometimes come from within. After ten months of work, there is one thing that has caught my attention, something that is clear, which is that if we want to protect the quality of information, we have to start by protecting the media and protecting journalists. And I’m very worried about what I’m seeing in my country right now. This is the Trumpization of public debate, where when a political party is dissatisfied with the way something is being treated, it will carry out mob attacks on journalists. What I mean is that harassment of journalists is the Trumpization of political debate and is the beginning of the degradation of democracy. We need reliable information. Let’s leave everything in the hands of professionals and most importantly, leave out the interference of politicians.
The final decision on the budget continues its parliamentary journey. The Senate must reveal everything that has been done in the National Assembly, especially the concessions made to the socialists, starting with the suspension of pension reform. Would you say this is helpful? How do you assess this budget as it stands?
I put myself in the shoes of all French people who see this kind of political debate completely stalled. First, we don’t know what the budget is, we don’t know how much everyone’s taxes are, we don’t know what public spending is. We see that lawmakers have added spending and more or less added taxes, but the deficit still has to reach 5% of GNP. We get the impression that we have completely forgotten when François Bayrou, rightly, reminds everyone by saying that we are mortgaging our future, we are mortgaging our children’s future, that debt, deficits, are not sustainable. And for now, what the deputies have shown is that apart from the very consistent people in my party, who voted against suspending reforms and against unreasonable taxes and still exorbitant spending, it must be said that the rest of the political class is very irresponsible.
But are you saying that Sébastien Lecornu was ultimately wrong to compromise to ensure stability and ultimately whatever the cost?
What I mean is that especially left-wing and right-wing groups, who are unfortunately allies in this point of view, it would be wrong to play politics to the detriment of France. And despite all the demagoguery and politics, I don’t see any general interest in anyone’s approach.
How do you think this budget could end? Can this end well? Should this end with regulation, with special legislation?
The sad thing is that if the budget ends up being good, as you say, that is, a budget that can be voted on by the Assembly as it is now, then it will not meet France and France’s needs. This is why, at Horizons, we sadly say nothing will happen before the presidential election. But every day, deputies from other parties prove us right, because they cannot overcome their divisions and concerns as politicians when thinking about France.
